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feat(balance): Human Carrier Rework - Navy Carrier + Aerie Changes #10273

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merged 18 commits into from
Dec 7, 2024

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Saugia
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@Saugia Saugia commented Jun 27, 2024

Balance

Summary

In the past, ideas were thrown around to increase the number of fighters for carrier-type ships in human space and to somewhat remove them from a "jack-of-all-trades" role. This primarily concerns the Navy Carrier and partly the Aerie. Me and @Quantumshark have sat down and worked through some notable balance change shifts for these ships in their roles.

Navy Carrier

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For the longest time, Carriers have been thought to be a bit too ship-to-ship combat friendly, essentially being larger Cruisers with more bays, guns, turrets, and health. I've been discussing reworking the Carrier to be more of a carrier in itself, and less of a Cruiser upgrade. It's also important to consider that Carriers typically aren't alone, and shouldn't be, as they're mostly in fleets with other Cruisers, Frigates, etc., that would provide more of the heavy ship-to-ship combat.

After some extensive discussion, we've come to a rework for the Carrier to operate more as a long-range fighter focused on its fighters and supporting them, rather than a powerful brawler. In this venue, the Carrier has lost four of its guns and one of its turrets, and in return, has gained four fighter bays (essentially suggesting the larger bays on the sprite hold two instead of one). This also is more sprite-friendly in that the Carrier doesn't simply have 4 guns essentially being "doubled up on top of each other" to be 8.

In terms of weapon loadout, the Carrier has lost its Particle Cannons but retains missile launchers as long-range guided weapons support. Instead of four Meteor Launchers, it carriers two Torpedo Launchers aside the two Meteor Launchers to have harder hitting weapons in place of what was lost. It has lost one of its Heavy Laser turrets for direct ship-to-ship combat, but retains its two Heavy Anti-Missile turrets to still keep its strong longer-range superiority against other ships with guided munitions.

Because it lost weapons, the Carrier's weapon space has been brought down from 370 to 240, so that it doesn't have notably unbalanced weapon space, but also can fit large enough weapons for its variants. Outfit-wise, a few amenities have been added. Two Security Stations and a Brig is now across all variants and not just one. To further assist its fighter role, the Carrier now has two D94 Shield Generators, instead of one, to help repair the fighters, as well as Sidewinder Racks + Ammo for resupplying them.

The Carrier's variants have been given two Typhoon Launchers in place of two of the original sidewinder launchers for the above reasoning for Torpedoes, along with everything else that carries over/is upgraded. Due to the weapon loss, the Dwarf Core and any Super Capacitors have been removed as they are unnecessary.

Additionally, the Jump Variant used as an escort for the Pug missions have been given an extra D67 Generator for more defense because of the removal of more pure offensive weapons.

The sprite would need to remove the middle turret mount, but it isn't absolutely necessary (personally the middle circle still being there looks part of the design, but I'd still want to get Gefu's help on removing it), and I'm waiting for more solid opinions on this before that.

The Giftbringer

The Giftbringer is a pretty important ship and fight for the player, so this is where the new balance could get crazy. If the Giftbringer were given four more Sestor drones, it could notably spike the difficulty of the fight. For the time being, we've elected to keep the Giftbringer as-is, and perhaps consider it a unique build the Alphas work with in comparison to the new default. Perhaps this warrants a sprite change, though it already has a different swizzle for appearances, but this can be discussed after the balance. Either way, this makes the ship more unique, which can be seen as good.

To make up for the space disparity, it has been given 120 weapon space back.

Aerie

image

The Aerie has floated around as a pretty average warship, having a decent armament for its size and a few fighters, however, it has not found itself a large niche to separate it from other ships such as Ospreys or Firebirds. While early-game fighters can be decently powerful, the Aerie falls off pretty fast to other more powerful ships. A lot of talks back and forth have gone around about giving the Aerie 2 more bays; this is where we've decided to do so.

The Aerie has been given two more Fighter Bays on top of the ones it currently has. This helps accentuate its role as a smaller carrier compared the Navy's, and helps bring the ship a bit more into the meta game when it's current role is notably niche. There were also talks about these being drone bays instead, but mainly for the reason that no (easily obtainable) human ships outside of Navy ships could carry drones. Now that the Sunder is in the game, there is an easily obtainable human ship that can carry two drones.

Unlike the Carrier, we didn't elect to give the Aerie any other outfits or upgrades as a flat buff to have double the fighters is strong as-is. The Carrier re-outfitting is to make more use of the space it gained from the loss of weaponry.

All missions and fleets including the Aerie and the Carrier have been updated.

Other Notes

Most other carriers in the game seem decently balanced - adding more fighters to them would break this balance, and changing outfits would change the role of said carriers. For example, the Hai Solifuge does make sense as a Battleship-Carrier hybrid, as opposed to the original Super-Cruiser Navy Carrier. Sestor Carriers are more than well off with their fighters. Other light/multi-role carriers, such as the Remnant Ibis or the Heliarch Judicator, seem comfortable in their roles. The Hauler series carrier edits aren't meant to be true carriers, they're explicitly janky upgrades to haulers with a few fighter racks, and wouldn't make sense to add more of them, especially considering the FWs having to supply that increase in assets.

Save File

This save file can be used to test these changes:
Eventually I will add a save file for the first battle of Free Worlds, but I expect a bit more testing than that. If you have a save file for important missions like that (first fight, big fights, Pug fight, Giftbringer fight), feel free to send them my way.

Artwork Checklist

(If any artwork was added or changed by this PR, the following must be provided.)

Saugia added 2 commits June 27, 2024 16:51
@Saugia Saugia added balance A ship or weapon that seems too powerful or useless, or a mission that seems too easy or hard content Issues and PRs about adding new game content (such as missions) without making code changes labels Jun 27, 2024
@Saugia Saugia changed the title feat(content): Human Carrier Rework - Navy Carrier + Aerie Changes feat(balance): Human Carrier Rework - Navy Carrier + Aerie Changes Jun 27, 2024
@Tangle10
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I suppose I'll preempt concerns about fitting the ships with Boxwings by coming out in favor of carriers-as-freighters- the Carrier isn't a problem IMO, as the player can already do Really Stupid Things with a Carrier for cargo space once they've stolen one; and the drop in available weapons & space- though I would have to check- almost certainly fails to counteract the piracy threat increase. Ultimately, it only somewhat beats the other gimmick freighter-carrier option (a Kestrel with six Boxwings) in exchange for having to capture the damn thing, requiring one to have already done some shenanigans (I'd imagine one would want to acquire a Bactrian or somesuch before going up against probably ~200 defense (if I remember how this works properly)) as well.

I might be slightly more concerned about the Aerie, as four Boxwings makes it somewhat like a more versatile Hauler III. On the other hand, I feel that probably makes it a better flagship option in a way that shouldn't be deterred? It's the sort of gimmick where I suspect most players will feel clever for realizing they can carry a Freighter's worth of cargo and carry actual fighters for defense in addition to the ship's own capabilities, and it's a good price for it too.

@AvianGeneticist
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I suppose I'll preempt concerns about fitting the ships with Boxwings by coming out in favor of carriers-as-freighters- the Carrier isn't a problem IMO, as the player can already do Really Stupid Things with a Carrier for cargo space once they've stolen one

I don't think it's much of a problem? 8 Boxwings isn't even the most you can get on 1 obtainable ship; the Tek Far 78 holds 9 Fighters. Besides, Faes'mars hold even more cargo in drone bays, which are more numerous on dedicated drone carriers like the Pond Strider or Tek Far 71.
And don't get me started on if you mix the two on a Tek Far 109.

@Quantumshark
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Quantumshark commented Jun 27, 2024

I don't think these Carrier+Boxwings setups are actually a balance issue, really. For the same crew wages that'd pay for a Carrier and 8 boxwings, you could have 8 bulk freighters, carrying 5,120 tons of cargo, while for the same up-front cost you can buy two bulk freighters and carry 1,280 tons of cargo. The spreading out of the cargo space across multiple ships each with low-moderate individual cargo also adds the additional downside relative to actual heavy freighters that you can't carry large single items, so no stealing valuable TPCs, Armaggeddon cores and the like.
There are some advantages such setups have over multiple bulk freighters, sure - the mobility being the most obvious one - but as I see it this is a legitimate case of some advantages in exchange for others, not of something that's in any sense game-breakingly overpowered.

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If this is what we decide we're going with, looks good!
Also, it gives players a more unique reward for fighting the Giftbringer.

@Hurleveur
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Hurleveur commented Jun 28, 2024

Great changes for the Carrier, its about time it got a nerf

That said, doesnt buffing the Aerie like this make the Roost and others irrelevant? I get they're supposed to be a retrofit but with a better Aerie there really isnt a reason to use them (so damn slow), whereas before you could just really like fighters. The fighters look like external addons, so maybe we can add some more to make them usuable? (Say 1, 2 and 3 more respectively for the Nest, Roost and Skein, one per core area basically)

@Saugia
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Saugia commented Jun 28, 2024

I don't think this devalues the Hauler variants at all. As mentioned, they aren't meant to be strictly good carriers, or as good ships in general. They're meant as tacky ships with slapped on fighter capability, not well-rounded vessels you can choose as alternatives for other ships. For instance, the Skein and Roost have better cargo than Aeries. The Nest would of course be weaker, but the Skein already carries four fighters, and the Roost even more. It also makes sense that something the Deep makes good use of is notably better than something the FW haphazardly put into practice.

I would consider buffing the Hauler variants if anything, say, health-wise, but we've already said a few times now that the Hauler variants wouldn't be getting/don't need more fighters.

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The Skein's description may need to be updated, as it no longer "[carries] more fighters than even the heaviest Navy warships".

@Quantumshark Quantumshark added the waiting on OP The OP needs to provide something, e.g, making requested changes, posting assets, etc. label Sep 7, 2024
@TheGiraffe3
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Is this PR going for 0.10.9?

@Quantumshark
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Probably not.

Saugia and others added 2 commits November 4, 2024 13:23
@Saugia Saugia removed the waiting on OP The OP needs to provide something, e.g, making requested changes, posting assets, etc. label Nov 7, 2024
@Saugia
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Saugia commented Nov 7, 2024

Thank you to @GefullteTaubenbrust2 for altering the Carrier sprite.

The original Carrier sprite with the extra turret has been renamed to "Carrier B", as per the discussion regarding compatibility with the Giftbringer.

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@Saugia Saugia requested a review from Quantumshark November 7, 2024 20:18
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Still the Skein description update to be made.

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@bene-dictator bene-dictator added the artwork Everything related to images, sprites, and graphics label Nov 20, 2024
@AvianGeneticist
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I can't comment on the Aerie's changes (not that there's much to comment on; it's just two extra bays) but in my off time I've been fiddling a bit with the Carrier's new stats.

You can REALLY feel the extra damage potential, especially if you shed distaste for secondaries. An extra 8 torpedo pods on target (not to mention storage racks to go along with it) makes the carrier a horrifically powerful burst damage dealer, though of course this does wane as your fighters and drones are picked off.

This combined with the massive amount of spare outfit space (even with human gear you could probably exceed 300 shield regen with proper build organization, and with Hai tech the number comfortably goes over 600 while using all available weapon and engine space) makes the carrier basically its own fire support, just soaking up damage while the fighters and drones do their thing. In my experience, a properly fitted "new" carrier and co. (in this context, hai systems, plasma engines, and torpedoes for damage) can take on a Rano'erek and win by a not insignificant margin.

@Saugia
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Saugia commented Nov 25, 2024

Does your playtesting support the rework in the right direction, or do you think it might have taken it a bit far?

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I think it's genuinely hard to say for sure.

What you're losing, basically, is the four particle cannons and some missile capacity (plus you'll have less Electron Beams when those exist into existence), which can be a hard sell due to Particles being some of the best ranged damage in human space.

Keep in mind in the above example I was fighting in ideal conditions (no other enemy spawns ensuring a 1v1). In more hectic battles, fighters and drones will get picked off more frequently, reducing overall DPS very fast as the fighters can only benefit so much from the carrier's 600+ regen.

I'd say keep it as is for now and see how it settles in the meta. It might need a buff for its role in large fleet battles, or a nerf to offset its colossal potential regen. Or, potentially, some mix of both (maybe trading some outfit space for drone bays).

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Oh, I didn't notice the carrier had one of its turret mounts docked here (I used save editing for my own personal test carrier).

The removal of the turret is probably unnecessary, to be honest. The massive reduction in weapon capacity is already going to discourage the use of lots of turrets (since overhead matters more). Really the only cases where the extra turret would be superbly beneficial is if the carrier was hauling lots of anti-missile, which (imo) is an appropriate niche (defends returning fighters). Plus, in my own testing, any DPS/utility provided by the extra turret was relatively minor compared to the DPS of the extra fighters (who's going to notice an extra blaster turret when you've got 12 extra blasters already whizzing around?).

@Quantumshark Quantumshark added this to the 0.10.11 milestone Nov 27, 2024
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The removal of the turret is probably unnecessary, to be honest.

There are a few reasons behind the removal of one turret mount.
A major one is that the ship itself should, if its fighters and drones are absent/removed, be vulnerable, particularly to attacks by small mobile ships. We want the ship to have clear weaknesses.
Another one is to better differentiate the hardpoint setup from that of other Human heavy warships. The 4/4 guns/turrets setup is fairly common, and in particular it's also what the carrier variant of the Kestrel has. I think giving the Carrier one less turret than this helps to more clearly distinguish its role from that of the carrier Kestrel, and also means that it doesn't obsolete the Kestrel despite its greater bay count.

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From my experience of testing FW with these changes, the battles against the Republic are definitely improved.

Lances don't seem to consistently swarm and overrun the player in the way that the Kor Sestor fighters often do during the Wanderer campaign, so the additional fighters haven't made the battles massively harder to survive. The balance of power between the Republic and FW fleets still feels about the same, but now if the battle concludes with a couple of Carriers surviving, that's a winnable fight for a single human heavy or medium warship (Falcon and Corvette respectively in my testing), rather than an unwinnable engagement that necessitates a reload.

I think that's a major positive change.
Previously, when there are 2-3 carriers left alive after a battle, it's a big contributor to the feeling of "I'm clearly supposed to have a bigger fleet for this mission". Now, that should be much less of an issue.

I haven't tested FWR's Pug fights with the changes yet, but I think if those turn out to be unbalanced after this change then the thing to do is to adjust the Pug fleets.

@Quantumshark Quantumshark merged commit a6601d7 into endless-sky:master Dec 7, 2024
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